Saturday, November 05, 2005

Cut out the middleman

I was browsing through random blogs and I came a across the blog Clean fun, by Mohamed in Egypt. He was inviting readers to ask him question about Islam. I think this is a good idea since living in the West, the followers of Islam is currently the ‘enemy’ and I doubt a balance picture of Islam is being presented. I am sure that the other way around the Western Society is not being portrait well in their countries.


But this is why the internet is so good, it cuts out the middleman and it is up to us to learn more. There will always be differences but it would be so much better if we all could get a long better. I would like to go on the Tube and not wonder when the next bomb will go off.

The backgound of Mohamds and my discussion is on his blog posts "The right Islamic Religion rules" and "a Question" and on my blog post "Ahh :)"

This is my comment:

Mohamed,

I don’t share your belief that a/the God created the universe. I respect the way that you believe the universe was created. I would like to receive the same respect back. I do not think that you are the enemy, a bad guy etc – in fact I like your openness and invitation for a discussion.

I do think you are wrong when you write “You can't condemn a religion through the mistakes of it's followers.”

Firstly, I do not condemn any religion and I wrote you that my opinion is that the world would be a better place with no religions. But do I think that is a likely outcome – no. Too many religious people around for that to happened.

Secondly, it is only way to judge a religion / society / philosophy is by its followers and their actions. We are all representative of something and our actions are being judged.

Communism worked fine on paper but as soon as the plans are executed by people it goes wrong – in my opinion. The judgement is based on the outcome of the plan.

For Islam and its followers, my opinion is that a huge majority of the followers are good and peaceful people. But there is an element of extremism with in your religion (which you probably would say is not true followers of Islam) and it is up to the respectable people within your community to weed out the bad elements. You are closer to the problem and should be able communicate to them so that they understand.

For the “Western Society”, we are also being judge of how we treat people and problems in our society. I think we have some fantastic freedoms that we are taking for granted. But we are not without fault and we do push our why of thinking on other countries and cultures. There is little respect for any other culture. One country is too dominant within the Western Society but we are closer to the problem and have to try to influence it for the better.

15 Comments:

Blogger Mohamed said...

Hi..
I want at the first to show a very important point;Islam is a wide religion that includes all sides of life(I realy mean the word-all-)as it invites its followers to be good men(or women) who have good morals,respect each otherselves rights,leave vices and bad things and reveres their parents..etc.Also it includes economy,policy,human rights,material science and knowledge,spiritual....etc.
So why we restrict our point of view on the bad doings of some who claime that they're Muslims or understand ISLAM wrong or they aren't Muslims but want to deface ISLAM..Also they are few yet they're so few(Let's count it:from a MILLIARD of Muslims around the world there are...(i don't know a definite number but it must be few)who are bad-)will we judge ISLAMIC Religioin from those bad? and I'll take your word:"we are not without fault"...
And I want to add another point.. You in the Western Society have alot of problems that have its solutions in ISLAM e.g social problems(absence or dissociation of family,abandonment of fathers and plenty cases of divorce)and it's solution is in remembering the well done of parents,forbiding harlotry and well choice of husband or wife...all these things are in ISLAM....
Secondly:I respect your point of view that you don't belive that Universe isn't created as my religion tells me that..but it orders me on seeing a wrong thing to do my best to change it..
So let you ask yourself some questions..How birds are flying witout falling?How the water go up from the soil then the root and the trunk to reach the leave without falling?How planets goes around themselves during going around the sun without clashing with themselves?How all these things in the nature has come to life?How and How and How..?It's a complicated system that must has a creator..He is ALLAH who know all the things in all the Universe and hear the creep of an black ant on the solid rock in a black night..
I give you an invitation to know more about ISLAMIC Religion and invite you to have a look on thoso websites:
www.islamonline.net
www.islamway.net
At the last I want to tell you that I admired your prudent viewing of your point of view and also want to apologize if I did badly in my comment...

WAITING FOR YOUR REPLY

11/10/2005 10:41:00 pm  
Blogger lizze said...

Hi Mohamed,

Good to read your comment, I was wondering if I used too obscure headline to my post and that you wouldn’t comment on it.

For your first point re. Islam includes all sides of life; I would have thought that all of the world religions give you the full scope of how to view the world. But do you need to be religious be to be a good person? And isn’t it restricting to be told how to read the world?

Your comments about Western Society, you also look at the bad side rather what is good. Maybe both you and I are a bit too defensive? I will always think that the Western society is the better one but I am happy to learn more about your society. My guess is that you think that your society is the better one.

At the moment, ‘the bad doings of those who call themselves Muslims’ are making a really bad impact and weather you like it or not, they are giving your whole community a bad name.

You are right - there are severe problems here with the family units. Personally, I think that drugs are a worse problem. The absence of one parent is a very disturbing but I do think it better for the child to grow up in safe home with one parent rather them living with parents that don’t like each other.

I don’t think that the Western Society needs to go to Islam to find the ‘solution’. As you know, Christianity doesn’t allow divorce, harlotry (new word for me and I think it means similar to prostitution) either. But then again, the Western Society (excl the US) is not a very religious society any more and is becoming more secular.

I would be very surprise to find out that your society don’t have social problems as well.

Very interesting that you mention science and I would like to know more what Islam has to say about. I don’t know much about it and the only thing I can make a reference to is the track record of Christianity and science, which is bloody awful. The science discovery made is in spite of Christianity. If the church would still have ruled then the world would have been flat and the universe spinning around the earth.

To me, Christianity has been used to control the masses over the centuries and have hold back the progress of the society rather then helping it. The lesser grip held by the church, the more freedoms have been given to the people.

To your second point, I don’t know how the universe has been created. I dare to say that neither do you but you believe (or have faith) in the way Islam teaches the creation of universe.

How birds are flying witout falling? Evolution. The birds that could not fly got eaten by predators.

How the water go up from the soil then the root and the trunk to reach the leave without falling? The existence of ground water. When it rains the ground becomes mature of water and leaves water at the surface for the plants and trees to drink the water.

How planets goes around themselves during going around the sun without clashing with themselves? Gravitation. The masses and the composition of the planets decide their gravitation and their paths in space.

How all these things in the nature has come to life? I don’t have a definitive answer but I do know that we are lucky to see all of it. But does it matter how of all planet earth was created, is it more important of how (badly) we all using the planet?

As you can read above, I think that millions of years of evaluation has created today’s planet. Science has help to explain a lot but I don’t think that science has a monopoly of explaining everything. If I did, then science would be my faith.

I hope I have made some sense, but I feel I have not been my best when writing my comments.

11/12/2005 09:09:00 pm  
Blogger lizze said...

Interesting comments on Religion

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?threadID=310&start=0&&&edition=1&ttl=20051114124108

11/14/2005 12:47:00 pm  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Thanks for that URL;it was important for me...
Please wait for me I'll reply your last comment but not now..I'll try my best to reply quickly...
But please I want to know some things about you:
How old are you?
If you're studying or working;what's your field?
If you don't want to tell me it's your own freedom but these information are important for me..so if you'll tell me and don't want any other body to know them you can send me an e-mail on my
e-mail..

11/15/2005 06:05:00 am  
Blogger lizze said...

Mohamed - no rush :)

11/15/2005 12:29:00 pm  
Blogger Mohamed said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

11/16/2005 12:18:00 pm  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Hi..
At the first I want to apologize in advance that this comment is big..so please be patient..and;it may appeal to you...

*Do you say that my society is the best one -in my point of view-?I can't say that by any way…Every society has its negatives and we have some in our society the biggest one is that the majority of people don't follow Islam in the right way -so the Western Society don't see the right face of Islam- so you find-in my society- who accepts bribes,who cants,who makes his own sake at the first and don't care for others and who don't respect traffic….
*In fact I see a lot of positives-that Islam orders us to do- in the Western Society that I can hardly find in my Society like valuing time,respecting traffic rules and
clean street-etc.

*I want to tell you that ISLAM told us that we won't be true Muslims till we believe that Moses and Jesus are prophets…

*I told you that Islam contains ((((all)))) sides of life so not me who will say these sides ;it's you :)….It organizes daily life of a muslim(his deals with others,his deals with his wife,sons,fathers,brothers,sisters)how to respect freedom of others,how to have fun,how to be successful in your life,how to eat properly, it also orders Muslims to learn foreign languages,it contains etiquette,how to be merciful with animals ………………………………………………………………..etc.
What will I say else?Oh I forgot…it also tells you how to be clean in your body,clothes and heart….

*QUR'AN(The Holy Book of Muslims) is the miracle of Prophet Mohamed given to him by ALLAH as it contains a lot of scientific facts that are being discovered newly by science in all sides(Biology,phycics…etc)

The first word in QUR'AN is :"Read.."
"[O Muhammad]
Read this in the name of your Lord
the Creator!
God formed humanity from a suspended piece of flesh.
Then read, for your Lord is the Most Generous,
the One who has taught people to write with a pen,
He taught people what they did not know.
Yet humans transgress the limits their Lord has set,
for they consider themselves self-sufficient.
But all humans will indeed finally return to the Lord."
(It proves that Islam invites Muslims to know more about material life)
another prove that Islam is a science message that our prophet(Mohamed)said:
*"Ask for science whether it's in China"
*"Asking for science is a task on every muslim man and woman"

Scientific facts have been told by ALLA in Qur'an and science discovered it newly:

Creation of man:
We created humankind
from an extract of clay.
We then formed him from a drop of sperm,
housing him in a secure place [within the womb].
We then created out of the drop of sperm
a suspended [cluster of cells in the womb].
And We then made these cluster of cells
grow into [an embryo,]
[which looks like no more than a piece of] chewed meat.
Then We caused bones to grow within it
and covered them with flesh and skin.
Finally, We transformed this living mass
into a different creature, a human being.
Give glory to God, the ultimate Creator.
[O human, you will live a certain time]
and then your earthly body will die;
but afterwards, you will be surely resurrected
on the Day of Judgment.
23:12-16

Water in the sea and river:
He lets two waters mix:
one is fresh water,
which is refreshingly drinkable
and the other is extremely salty,
bitter and undrinkable.
But He has set between them a perfect barrier
and complete partition.
25:53
(Physics scientists have discovered the fact that water from thickness can't mix with another water with another thickness-newly)

Expanding of Universe:
We created the heavens
with great power and abundance
so that the Universe continues to expand.
51:47
(Scientists have discovered that fact theoretical in the beginning of the 20th century ,and on earth in 1929)


Three darkness levels:
God creates humans in their mothers’ wombs,
one stage at a time;
and inside the womb the embryo is protected
by three levels of darkness.
39:6
(Recent biological science has discovered that embryo inside his mother passes three stages and three layers)
and there is more and more and more like that…..


All these scientific facts couldn't-by any mean-have been known-if we looked to the scientific and technological level-in the age of Mohamed(Our messenger) before 1400 years; so they prove that the Holy QUR'AN is not written by men; it's ALLAH's Holy words for us….

So I give you the invitation to be fair and contact Muslims in your country to know more(if you want)Here you're the address of an Islamic Center in London:
England
Al Muntada Al-Islami Trust
7 Bridges Place, Parsons Green
London SW6 4HHR
United Kingdom
Ph.: 071-731 8145
Fax.: 071-738 4225

11/16/2005 12:21:00 pm  
Blogger lizze said...

You write a lot of interesting comments; I didn’t know what you wrote about Jesus and Moses. I understand better what you write about Islam covers all side of Islam .

“All these scientific facts couldn't-by any mean-have been known” – I think they did, just the information was lost.

People were enlighten and knew about science and nature’s ways before any of the religious books were written.

Look at the pyramids in your country, either the were build through hard labour (my guess) or by aliens (…?) – it still required at complex thinking and problem solving to build these magnificent buildings.

The following comment does only apply to Christianity since I don’t know about the Islam development, after the Bible our society lost a lot of information. We were really living in the Dark ages and this is because the Catholic Church got too influential and controlling.

During these years, we could not build what the Romans had been able to build. The Roman knew more about cleanness and hygiene and the Western Society caught up with that during early 1900.

“So I give you the invitation to be fair” – have I been unfair? Thank you for the information but I prefer talking to you. I am not religious and I happy with that. All I am trying to do is understand the world a little bit more.

11/19/2005 02:54:00 pm  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Hi..
I'm really sorry for the word"be fair";in fact you were really fair(Truly) and I respect your calm and civilized way in dialoguing ..but I said it not meaning it directly..but I just wanted to confirm my request about entering websites….

I thank ALLAH that you understood that Islam covers all sides of(Life).

I want to attract your attention for an important point;I know that old man had his own knowledge about some kinds of science like Engineering and Chemistry and also had his equipments.. but however the level of knowledge he has reached;he won't pass-with his knowledge-the limited earth and stars can be seen by the naked eye….and another thing is that he didn't has any of modern equipments we have like telescopes,microscopes,rockets,indoscopes..etc.
So if you return to my last message you'll find that QUR'AN told us-before 1400 years-that Universe is expanding…and scientists had known this fact newly..and if you thought about it:When have the first telescope or rocket been invinted?!!
And if you said that information about Creation of man and Water of the sea and river were easy to be known;I won't talk more about them(however scientists used modern equipments to discover them) but I'll tell you about a Science fact were told in QUR'AN before 1400 years and was the reason why somebody be MUSLIM:
*Splitting of the moon:
ALLAH said:"The Hour (of Judgment) is nigh, and the moon is cleft asunder" Surat The moon:verse 1.
(The story of this verse is that unbelievers of Mohamed's tribe promise-incapacitating- him that they'll believe in Islam if he divided the moon..so he asked ALLAH to do for them what they wanted,and the moon was divided into two pieces and they saw them;but they claimed that he made magic with them and said that he can't made it with all people..so they asked some people who were away from Mecca-the town where they were-and they told them that they saw it…
Years passed and there were a British man(called Dawod Moses Pitkok) searching for a religion to follow and started reading QUR'AN,and when he reached this verse up he said to himself:Does the moon split?!!and left reading QUR'AN…
And one day he was watching a program on the BBC and the interlocutor was dialoging with three American scientists and during this dialogue they talked about a trip that costed 100milliards from America and the interlocutor asked them:Do you pay all this amount just to put American flag on the moon?!! ..and they replied that they were comparing the internal structure of the moon with internal structure of the earth and it was the surprise….they discovered a belt of rocks across the moon from the surface to the center and again to the surface so they wondered and then decided that it can't happen till the moon has been divided in some day and then cohesion again and this belt was formed during the moment of cohesion…….
Dawod says that he jumped out of his chair saying:A miracle happened to Mohamed in the desert before 1400 years and ALLAH fatigues Americans paying milliards to prove it for Muslims;this Religion must be right!!
Now he is the chief of British Islamic Faction…..
And this verse was the reason why he became muslim after it was the reason why he left reading QUR'AN…..

And in replying in "the religious books were written":Our Prophet(Mohamed) was illiterate….so nobody can convince me or any body that he wrote the QUR'AN or scientific facts in it from his mind and his tribe knew that he didn't get science from any scholar….and another point:QUR'AN is not like the Bible;as the Bible was sent by ALLAH to Jesus and then it has been written a lot of times with different ways(you can make sure from plurality of Bibles)on contrary QUR'AN hadn't been changed from the time it was sent by ALLAH to our Prophet(Mohamed)from 1400 years as ALLAH told Humanity in QUR'AN:"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)" Surat Al Hijr:verse 9

At the end I renew my request about websites if you really want to "understand the world a little bit more" ….

11/23/2005 02:14:00 pm  
Blogger lizze said...

Mohamed – you argue you points well and being in contact with actually gives me a little glimmer of hope.

I know that not every religious person is a “nutter” and sensible viewpoints are not given their fair share in the media. The media is, after all, where most people come in contact with other groups of people that they don’t belong to.

That is why the internet can be so good – direct contact.

Do I have all the answer to the big question as a religion will provide to you … no. But just because I cannot answer some of your questions, doesn’t mean I ‘buy’ your/Islam’s take on things

One thing I don’t doubt is your quotes from Islam – you have got me to read bits of the QUR’AN :)

I did a Google search for Dawod Moses Pitkok and Google can’t find any references. http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&q=%22Dawod%20Moses%20Pitkok%22 and I can’t find any reference of British Islamic Faction http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22British+Islamic+Faction%22&btnG=Search

I don’t think the moon has been split in two. But do I know this for a fact … no

And who did write the QUR’AN?

11/24/2005 10:21:00 pm  
Blogger Johannes said...

"One of the loftiest forms of jihad is to utter a word of truth in the presence of a tyrannical ruler"

- Hasan al-Banna

//I'll try to find some time to read more of this later :)

11/25/2005 12:18:00 pm  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Hi..
I searched for "Splitting of the moon" and found great things as:
http://www.islamcan.com/cgi-bin/increaseiman/htmlfiles/static/107774039613112.shtml

And what about "British Islamic(Faction)" it's "British Islamic(Party)"..
This fault is because when I searched for the meaning of this word I found two meanings(Faction and party)..as I read the story in Arabic and then translated it..

And what about your question:
QUR'AN was sent by ALLAH to Prophet Mohamed by an angel called Gebrel..and as I told you;Prophet Mohamed was illiterate so he was telling his followers what is sent to him and they write it..

I want to reply my question about your field and I'll tell you the reason:you'll understand your field more than other fields so when I speak with you about Islamic view of it you'll understand..

11/26/2005 11:44:00 pm  
Blogger lizze said...

Mohamed – my apologies for the late reply. I got caught up with other things but you were at the back of my mind.

Regarding your question: “If you're studying or working;what's your field?” I ignored it since I didn’t want to answer it. I am cagey to reveal private information on the internet. I have written what I am prepared to give out. However, in my other posts more personal information is slowly sipping out and I think I have written what field I am working within.

It is understandable to do a translation mistake, I certainly do those mistakes too. I have the read the link that you posted. I cannot help to think that if this split has been proven by independently scientists – why have I not heard about it before if this is widely known and accepted?

Also, it would add more credibility is the “three American astronautics specialists” were named. With science of any discipline, it is very important to name all the sources to your information. I realise though that is an article for a mainly Islamic readership.

I did a Google search for "Splitting OR separation of the Moon" http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Splitting+OR+separation+of+the+Moon%22&spell=1
and all the hits on the first page have a connection to Islam or Islamic groups. This is only an indication and not a fact. If this split is true (which I do not think) and I did expect to see some other source confirming this.

Your mention of the angel Gebrel – is that any ‘relation’ to the Christian angel Gabriel? Yes is the answer to my own question. Thank to the wiki site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_(archangel)

12/03/2005 10:33:00 pm  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Hi,
Thanks for your gentle words on my blog..

I didn't find your field so you can easily tell me on my
e-mail..it's muslimboy07@gmail.com but if you don't want;please accept my apologize..
and what about me I'm studying Law..

What about Angel Gebrel(Gabriel):
Allah is one and he sent
angel Gebrel to his all messengers as(Prophet Jeuses and Prophet Mohamed)to tell us about him,and Prophet Mohamed is the last prophet to us(you and me and all people)..

what about the moon if you trust NASA you can find an article talking about it
and the writer is wondering what caused it...the link is:

http://apod.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap021029.html

and names of scientists -and pictures:)-are in the link when you click on "Apollo 10" in this article..
and you can search for it in
href="http://www.nasa.gov">NASA

under "A Lunar Rille
Credit Apollo 10"
and if it was caused by a volcano or earthquake Scientists wouldn't have been in this puzzle..

and I want to ask you a question:Do you believe that there is a thing called "Electricity"?!!!
I think the answer is YES..

Do you see it?!!!!!
I think again the answer is NO..

How can you prove that it's existent?!.....!!
Please reply me in your next message..

12/07/2005 09:13:00 am  
Blogger Mohamed said...

I'm sorry
it's www.nasa.gov

12/07/2005 09:16:00 am  

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